Fighting Ethanol In Fuel
How badly do you suppose ethanol would gum up this old engine?
It’s pretty well established that motorcycle engines and ethanol do not play nicely together, particularly when the proportion of ethanol in the gas get beyond a certain point. And using high-ethanol gas can reputedly even invalidate your warranty on the bike.
So it should not be a surprise that ABATE of Colorado opposes E-15, which is a newer ethanol fuel that has 15 percent ethanol, vs. the 10 percent we have had for many years. E-15 crosses the line.
I got the following alert from Stump, who keeps track of legislation for ABATE and does what he can to promote or oppose bills. That is to say, he’s a lobbyist, our lobbyist.
On Monday, 3/28, SB16-175 (E-15 Gasoline Income Tax Credit For Retail Dealers) was introduced in the Senate and assigned to the Senate Finance Committee. The Senate Finance Committee Members are: Sen. Neville (chair); Sen. Hill; Sen. Holbert; Sen. Johnston; and Sen. Kerr. I requested a meeting with the sponsor of the bill. I also plan to get a letter out to the Senate Finance Committee members and possibly meet with a couple of them before the committee meets on this bill which is scheduled for Thursday, 4/14. Now would be a good time to write / e-mail the Senate Finance Committee Members and urge them to oppose SB16-175. I’ve attached some talking point about E-15 Fuel to use in your letters. Please forward this to your district members ASAP and encourage them to e-mail the Senate Finance Committee Members.
Thanks,
Stump
You can read that letter with talking points that he mentioned here.
There are two issues as far as I see it. First there are the detrimental effects, of which Stump lists four:
PROBLEM 1: DEBRIS IN FUEL
Gums rapidly form in the fuel tank and fuel delivery systems as ethanol fuels age. However, ethanol is also a powerful solvent that will strip away and disperse this build up back into the fuel as large, performance-robbing particles. This leads to clogged filters, injectors and carburetors.
PROBLEM 2: EXCESSIVE WATER IN THE FUEL AND PHASE SEPARATION
Ethanol attracts moisture from the atmosphere, forming an ethanol/water solution mixed in the gasoline. Ethanol-blended fuel will naturally hold .5% water in suspension, but when water levels exceed this threshold, or when the fuel cools significantly, the water/ethanol mix drops out of suspension. This is phase separation. Excessive water in the fuel tank causes engines to run rough, stall, and can lead to internal damage to engine components. Ethanol provides a significant amount of the fuel’s octane, so when the ethanol/water solution separates and drops to the bottom of the tank, the remaining fuel is left without enough octane to properly operate the engine. Additionally, the ethanol/water solution can become partially combustible, which can lead to engine damage.
PROBLEM 3: ETHANOL FUELS BREAK DOWN QUICKLY
Over a short period of time ethanol fuel begins to break down. As ethanol and other components evaporate, the fuel loses octane and becomes “stale.†This causes hard starts, pinging and engine knock, which robs your engine of power and can cause damage.
PROBLEM 4: ETHANOL CAUSES LOST POWER, PERFORMANCE AND DECREASED FUEL ECONOMY
Ethanol fuel does not produce as much energy as traditional fuel. This results in inefficient combustion, decreased performance, reduced throttle response and poor fuel economy.
–Reprinted from StarTron fuel additive info brochure–
The other is that the only reason this whole ethanol thing has not died is because of the political pull of the corn farmers. Like so many other people I supported the idea of adding ethanol to gas originally, but like so many others I have now come to see that the whole things is a waste. It takes nearly as much energy to produce the stuff as you get from burning it and it’s not good for your motor. We tried it. It failed. Let’s kill the program and move forward. Oh, no–now we have vested interests.
At least if we could get SB 16-175 killed we wouldn’t be giving a tax credit to the stations that sell the stuff.
Biker Quote for Today
Gone riding, be back whenever . . .
Tags: E-15
April 11th, 2016 at 9:32 am
PROBLEM 1: DEBRIS IN FUEL – The crap or particulate that is floating around is from the gasoline side of your fuel and not ethanol. The amount of filtration that goes into the process right before loading on a truck prevent particulate from entering blending tanks.
PROBLEM 2: EXCESSIVE WATER IN THE FUEL AND PHASE SEPARATION – Ethanol is 100% mixed with gasoline and therefore can not come out of solution. It WILL NOT cause phase separation. If you’re having issues with water in your fuel tank, I would investigate the gasoline supplier. This is not an ethanol related problem.
PROBLEM 3: ETHANOL FUELS BREAK DOWN QUICKLY – How can it break down when it is pure alcohol? Do you realize how silly of an idea that is? I’ve had bottles of vodka or whiskey in my fridge or freezer for years and not once had it changed in flavor or potency. That being said about store bought alcohol (vodka or whiskey) which is only 40-50% pure. Ethanol that is mixed with fuel is 200 proof and 100% pure alcohol. I guess my point is that it won’t go bad.
PROBLEM 4: ETHANOL CAUSES LOST POWER, PERFORMANCE AND DECREASED FUEL ECONOMY – Ethanol increases power and that’s a FACT! Why else would Nascar be advocating for it. They love the performance and the added Horse Power. The mileage can be noticeable based on driving habits. What we really need is more work done with the engines and achieve higher compression. That will help balance out the MPG’s.
We as Americans should want to burn more ethanol in our fuel supply. It is cleaner burning and helps the American economy and keeps the money spent here rather than going overseas. Overseas to countries that want to hurt us or destroy us. I’ve been using ethanol in all my small engines, cars, trucks, and boat for years and not once ever had any problems. I don’t have a motorcycle but being that ethanol burns cooler it would be a win win for all motorcycle clubs. Added Horse Power, clean burning, cooler temp, and most importantly AMERICAN!
Phil Turchen
April 11th, 2016 at 10:30 am
E15 is not going to replace all other, approved for motorcycle, gasoline blends (E10). To suggest that to your readers is reckless. I’m in the ethanol industry in Colorado, and fuel retailers we partner with to offer higher ethanol blended fuel options like E15, also continue to offer traditional E10 gasoline. We advocate for fuel options, giving consumers more fuel choice, which is good competition and drives down cost at the pump. If the fear is mis-fueling, then it’s no different than motorcycle owners knowing not to put diesel in their tanks. Motorcycle owners should know that E15 is not an approved fuel for their use.
I also see your talking points are from StarTron, who is in the business of creating fear tactics like these ethanol “problems”, so they can sell more of their products.
April 11th, 2016 at 12:00 pm
First of all E 15 is not approved for motorcycle use this would not be any different than comparing diesel to unleaded. Ethanol is however high octane quality fuel that does reduce emissions and is cleaner for the air we breath. for everyone 1 unit of energy used to produce ethanol there is 2 unit return this can’t be said for gasoline in which is net loser. Ethanol is the best fuel on the road today this hasn’t changed since Henry Ford’s first model T. The reason of all the miss conception is because big oil knows ethanol will take some of their market share and they fund dubious study’s to try to dis credit ethanol’s benefits. Wouldn’t you rather support the American Farmer/American worker than the middle east?
April 11th, 2016 at 8:02 pm
While we’re at it, ethanol is made from products that would normally be considered food, either directly to humans or indirectly as animal feed. By burning about 40% of our corn production as fuel, we run up the price of groceries while we’re at it.
The correct approach would be to abolish the ethanol requirement completely. Better mileage, lower pollution, and cheaper groceries.
April 12th, 2016 at 4:43 am
Hi Ken –
I read your post about E15 along with the comments from your friend ‘Stump.’ I’m surprised that you failed to warn motorcycle riders of the danger of riding their bikes too close to large areas of water because a Kraken monster could rise up out of the depths at any moment to seize them.
I understand that the Kraken is a mythological creature, but as long as you’re peddling fairy tails you might as well go all the way.
Owning and riding a motorcycle, like owning and driving a car, doesn’t magically imbue the owner with any great technical knowledge. Therefore owners of bikes and cars, like you guys, should stay away from making claims when it’s clear that you don’t have any technical knowledge whatsoever. The claims you posted are completely false.
The only uncertainty in my mind is why you would make these false claims – is it just because of ignorance or are they intentional lies. If the false claims come from StarTron then I’m reasonably certain they are lies; lies made to help sell their snake oil products. Perhaps they should have stayed dedicated to making car polish products.
You posted that “Gums rapidly form in the fuel tank and fuel delivery systems as ethanol fuels age.†The substance you are referring to, which some call sludge or gunk, is caused by gasoline. This will form whether there is ethanol present in your fuel or not. This problem has been around for as long as gasoline has been used in internal combustion engines (more than 100 years). Engine treatment and cleaner products have been around for nearly as long. So to ascribe the problem to ethanol as if it’s something exclusive to ethanol is preposterous.
To solve the problem of sludge/gum/gunk build up you use ethanol or a product that emulates ethanol. When you wash your hands with soap, the soap doesn’t make your hands dirtier; the soap facilitates the cleaning process. If your engine has a great deal of build up, then you will have to eventually have it cleaned. This may also require changing the fuel filter and other parts. This is standard procedure in vehicle ownership.
It may be that going from long-term use of ethanol-free gasoline to an ethanol blend will cause the sludge/gum/gunk to breakaway, but that’s what you would want to happen in order to clean your engine. However, if you have already been using E10 or if you recently had your engine cleaned and the fuel filter changed, then E15 won’t cause any problems with the gum/gunk/sludge because there will be very little of it; in fact, there may be none.
Your post continues by going deeper into myth. Ethanol does not attract moisture from the atmosphere. Moisture (water) can form in a fuel tank, but it forms because of condensation. Ethanol does not exacerbate the condensation process. And the problem of condensation has been a problem with internal combustion engines for as long as internal combustion engines have existed. Condensation can occur with gasoline or even if the fuel tank is completely empty; that’s how condensation works. So again, to ascribe this problem to ethanol as if it’s specific to ethanol is ridiculous.
Moreover, if your fuel tank and fuel system did get water in it there are two ways to remove the water: First is to drain the tank and system. The Second, and faster solution, is to add something like Dry Gas. Dry Gas is ethanol. So ethanol solves the problem, it doesn’t cause the problem.
Phase separation is actually a problem with gasoline, not ethanol. Ethanol breaks down water molecules and holds it until it’s expelled through the exhaust system when the engine is running. Gasoline does not have that same ability to break down and hold the water. That’s when you get phase separation. That’s when the engine will not start.
It is true that ethanol can reach a point where there is too much water and the water will lie separately from the ethanol, but this is several times more water then gasoline can handle. So it there’s a situation in which you inadvertently poured some water into your fuel tank, you better hope that you have ethanol and not gasoline in the tank.
Your post continues with more silliness. You write that ethanol fuels break down quickly. It’s gasoline that breaks down quickly, which is why gasoline stored in a fuel tank for a long time requires a stabilizer. You may have noticed a bottle of whisky in your grandparent’s liquor cabinet over years and years. They whisky never broke down; it never required a stabilizer; you can drink from the same bottle of whisky for 20 years and the taste and strength will remain the same.
An ethanol-gasoline blend may separate but the moment the engine is started the ethanol and gasoline readily mix. In addition, the “short period of time†is not a short period of time. You make it sound as if it will occur over a lunch break.
Painting the image that the separation of ethanol and gasoline is similar to the separation of water and gasoline is false. Water has no ability to combust, so if you have phase separation in your tank of water and gasoline then you will have trouble. On the other hand, if the ethanol and gasoline separates you’ll never know it because ethanol combusts, and once combustion takes place the gasoline and ethanol mix together.
You post that ethanol causes lost power, performance and decreased fuel economy. This is all nonsense. Ethanol delivers more power because you get more compression. More compression leads to better performance – this is why high end performance cars and many race cars use ethanol fuels. And, the reason that a gasoline engine running on ethanol fuel will get less MPG is because the engine is optimized to run on gasoline. The same engine optimized to run on an ethanol fuel will get better MPG. In any event, if you lose 10% in miles by using an ethanol-gasoline blend, but save 20% in fuel cost, then you have a net gain, not net loss.
And finally, you raise the absurd issue that the ‘Kraken E15 monster’ will force its way into your fuel tank. Just because E15 may become available in Colorado, it doesn’t mean that it’s everywhere or that it’s the only fuel choice. Also the pump and hose is clearly labeled. I realize that on occasion someone excessively stupid or drunk will pump diesel fuel into a gasoline tank, and vice-versa, but this is another reason while you should not drive when drunk or excessively stupid.
Incidentally, I own and ride a motorcycle, and have done so for the past 20 years. I have never, ever, experienced any of the problems that you, Stump, ABATE and StarTron claim. I have, however, over the course of driving vehicles of all types for nearly 50 years experienced fuel line freeze (which is virtually non-existent with ethanol-gasoline blends), faulty fuel pumps, broken fuel lines, and leaky seals… all of which happened to my vehicles using leaded gasoline or gasoline with MTBE.
If you guys don’t understand these extremely simple facts about internal combustion engines then you should not be writing about them, let alone giving advice to anyone else.
Have a happy week and ride safely.
Marc J. Rauch
Exec. Vice President/Co-Publisher
THE AUTO CHANNEL
April 12th, 2016 at 7:16 pm
You are an idiot if you believe any of this bullshit. Does this author verify any information? Don’t write about engines and fuels if you don’t know what you’re talking about. E15 isn’t approved for motorcycles, so why are you bashing it??! Do you put diesel fuel in your motorcycle?
April 13th, 2016 at 10:32 am
Gordon–
Judging by the number of comments this post drew, it hit a nerve. So much so that I intend to study the comments and see what I can learn about the matter and do a follow-up post. As for E15 not being approved for motorcycles, I understand that. I think the concern is with the pumps that use one hose for all gases and there being lingering E15 in the hose. Also, people who are not aware of the differences and who might unthinkingly put E15 into their motorcycle.
April 20th, 2016 at 2:55 pm
Billll,
The cost of food, broken down per dollar is as follows;
17 cents (percent) of one dollar goes to pay for the ingredients of your food, in example the corn in your corn flakes costs $0.17 of every dollar. What do the other 83 cents go to pay for then?!? I’m glad you asked. About 50 cents goes to pay for Energy costs, the fuel needed to run the oven/fryer, the fuel needed to run the lights and heaters at the plant where your corn flakes are made, and even the fuel needed to put into the semi truck to drive your box of corn flakes to your local grocery market.
Well that still leaves 33 cents un accounted for doesn’t it. Well the workers that make your corn flakes do like to receive a little bit of that so they can buy their own corn flakes. But not all of it goes to labor costs, you do so love that perfect box and nice safe sanitary plastic bag your corn flakes are packaged in don’t you? Well those are going to cost you some money too.
All told 83 percent of every dollar goes to non food cost and only 17 percent goes to pay for the actual food.
I see you don’t believe me, as this is very hard to comprehend. Well, don’t take my word for it. Go and look up the cost of Oil, the world crude price index in $/Barrel. Now take this data and compare it to the United Nations Food Price Index. Don’t worry, take your time, I’ll wait….. Good, now that you have the charts in your hot little hands, compare them. Ah Ha! I see that you begin to understand. Why yes they do look remarkably similar. As the cost of oil goes up, the cost of food goes up, when the cost of oil goes down the cost of food goes down. In fact if you were to take those charts and actually put them through a statistical analysis you would see that there is less than 0.05 degrees of variance.
So the next time you see big oil tell you that buy making ethanol we are increasing the cost of food, please, stop and think about the real world data. Look into it your self, these figures are a mater of public record. The cost of food follows the cost of oil, and as a mater of fact as we have used less oil, by replacing it with ethanol, the cost of food has fallen below the normal inflation mark. Food increased in cost by 3.5% per year before ethanol. After Ethanol became a major component of America’s fuel supply it has only risen 2.8% per year.
But by all means, Stop buying ethanol blended gas in order to “lower” the cost of food, just don’t complain when your box of corn flakes costs more with out ethanol than it did with.
Thank you,
Matthew Folmar
Lab Manager